The Secret Tech That Makes Customers Addicted to Brands: AI + NFC

There's only one time that customers are excited to engage with the brands that they're purchasing from.

Yes, no one wants to scan a QR code. We know that it's not going to lead to anything incredible.

QR codes on packaging just don't seem to work. They have scan rates of between like 1 to 3% on average.

Ishita Agarwal is the founder and CEO of the TAP, a game-changing platform turning everyday products into interactive gamified brand experiences.

I am personally really really excited because e-commerce is changing so much right now. As a founder, I've really learned that patience is a virtue. Basically, there's little NFC enablement on the tops of your phones.

Can you explain what problem you're solving at the tab?

When you think about commerce from the consumer perspective, the experience feels pretty broken.

Can you tell me what was the original idea and how that has transformed?

What have we learned in our journey at TAP? Um,

today on the show we have Ishida Agarwal. She's the founder and CEO of the TAP. Tap is a gamified membership experience that lives on your mobile devices. Ishida, can you explain what problem you're solving at the tap?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, we're solving a couple of different problems, but the main one is when you think about commerce from the consumer perspective, the experience feels pretty broken. So there's this crazy statistic that today in every single category there's six times as many brands as there were just compared to 5 years ago. So it's pretty crazy how bad the competition has gotten. But the crazier thing is that consumers picked your product. They bought your product other and they bought your product even though there's 50 others that basically are claiming they're doing the same thing. So the question becomes that person didn't just buy the product or the benefits. they've actually bought into your brand, your ethos, your mission. There's something about your brand that really resonated with them. But today, the way that brands are engaging with these customers post purchase is really limited to email, SMS, retargeting, and maybe your website. But in our research early on when we were founding the company, the very early insight we had was that there's only one time that customers are they're purchasing from. And unfortunately, it's not in their inbox or their social media channels or on your website. It's when they're actually using your product. So, we wanted to come up with a new way for brands to engage with customers in a meaningful way and help them bring them and help bring them into the brand experience that they've created. So, what TAP does, we do it in a couple of different ways, but the real idea eventually is that we want to put little smart stickers on products. Um, these stickers are tapable. They kind of feel like Apple Pay. When the customer taps on it, it launches a web-based portal. So there is no downloads or anything like that required. And that portal has a bunch of different challenges. So you can have different types of modules ranging from things like tutorials and branded games and polls and community walls, a bunch a bunch of different ways to meaningfully bring the customer into your brand. And you can refresh those modules on a monthly basis, a quarterly basis, whatever that looks like. As they go through the modules, they earn points. and then those points can be redeemed for merch or whatever rewards you want to give them um with their next purchase or their next order. So just kind of it's one platform, it's a membership experience that helps customers feel like they're still a part of the brand and engage with it in an interactive way versus it being a one-way conversation from the brand to the customer as it is today.

That's a great idea. I think for me, I've launched a few e-commerce companies and the cost of acquiring customer is so incredibly high.

Yeah. and then re-engaging them with email newsletters. And in some cases, people don't really it's it's becoming oversaturated now. Uh how many email newsletters are you going to subscribe to? So,

right.

Walk me through the journey of people clicking on the tab. So, it's b how do they uh is it a you scan a code? How does that work?

So, let's start with what the experience looks like. Forget about the tag and all that stuff. So the way the experience works, however you get into it, again it's a web application, so it feels like an app, but it lives in a browser. So there's no downloads required, but it still for the user kind of feels like this app experience. Once you get into the app, you're kind of greeted, you're kind of um onboarded into the experience. And we tell you, hey, every month, every quarter, whatever the cadence it is for for this particular brand, you're going to see a fresh set of challenges that live here. So, um, for example, if you're a supplement brand, you might have, um, little brain challenges and like little games for people to play versus if you're a beauty brand, you might have a more fun game for people to play. Um, you can have polls in there where you're asking your customers, hey, like what should we be launching next or what should we name our next product? Uh, you can have community walls where you're asking questions and everyone's seeing what other folks in that community are are saying. So the idea here is really when you're creating a community um the really important thing is that there's one foundation that you're building it on. And the beautiful thing about brands is everyone that buys your product is by definition a community because they've agreed and they've bought into some sort of foundation that your brand is built on. So we just want to be the platform that builds on that foundation, right? So brings people in, lets them engage with with the brands that they care about in a more meaningful way. Now to get to your original question of okay, great. we have this cool experience, it's reward based, people are excited to engage with it. Um, but how do people access the actual experience? There's no app downloads, etc. that like we talked about. And there's kind of three levels. So, if brands want to just kind of start it ranging from like being really easy to being the most effective. So, the easiest way is just just to plug it into your current digital channel. So, you can still send it through email. You if you have SMS um lists, you can send it through that. you can put it on your website as a membership portal people can get into. But the issue there is that a you're limited to your DTC customers and b you're limited to the number of people that are engaging with your emails, SMS, etc. And as we know those work, but it doesn't work for all of your customers, right?

Yeah.

Um the second level is using inserts. So some brands put like little inserts with QR codes in there. Um this is great for Amazon. So if you're selling through Amazon, you put a little insert in there. you invite people to this exclusive membership experience. Brands now get access to who's buying from them in channels like Amazon and Tik Tok Tik Tok shop. Um, but these customers more importantly are getting access to the whole brand experience and feel like they're a part of it and it's not just like another product that they bought on Amazon. Now the best experience is to put these little stickers on products. Um, and they're literally just stickers. They can go anywhere on your packaging so it doesn't disrupt your supply chain. You can put it into any kitting service with your 3PL or your co-acker. Um, but what it allows customers to do is to tap on it just like Apple Pay. So, to put this kind of the numbers in perspective, um, brands have tried this with QR codes, but QR codes on packaging just don't seem to work. They have scan rates of between like 1 to 3% on average on a good day. Um, our tap tags, as we call them, have tap rates of between 20 to 40%. So, truly exponentially higher than these QR codes. What does that tell us? It tells me that customers want to engage with the brands that they buy from, but there just isn't a great channel for them to do that through today. So, three levels. You can start with just digital. You can add inserts, but the best way to do it is to put these little stickers on your packaging. And we've seen that it works incredibly well for the brands that do it.

Charlie Mer said, "Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome." What I mean by that is consumers nowadays are very incentive based. They're techsavvy. they're really really uh they they know the entire landscape of things and even for me like because of tools like Honey, we are really um we know promo codes now. We look for promo codes online to take advantage of that. And I think it's a great idea because

yes, no one wants to scan a QR code because

we know that it's not going to lead to anything incredible. But if I knew that scanning something would lead to an experience or it would not just be like a promo code, but it'll be more than that. It'll be an experience. I would be inclined to scan that.

Yeah. And and just so we're clear, you're tapping, not scanning. So you're not bringing out your camera or anything. So the way it works, you have a little sticker on your product. I actually have one right here. Um it's just a sticker that goes anywhere. You can design it to look any which way you want. Um so it can blend in with your packaging. You can have whatever CTA you want on here. with your phone. You literally just unlock your phone and tap on it like Apple Pay

and there's a little notification that shows up that brings you to the experience. It's loading for a second here, but um that's how that works.

Is it the same technology that you know when you connect two iPhones like that? Is it the same thing?

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's the same technology as Apple Pay. the same thing as when you're um holding your basically there's little NFC enablement on the tops of your phones on on iPhone devices. It kind of lives right around this area. Um and what that sensor is trying to do is just read the output from NFC devices, NFC enabled devices. So when you have two phones, when both of their NFC sensors are right next to each other, it's kind of built now to say, "Oh, we're trying to get some sort of information from that phone." But with our stickers, there's a little chip in it. It's encoded with a URL or whatever it is that you're trying to launch once you tap on it. Um, so it's it's really simple technology. It's actually been around for decades. Um, it's just never really been applied in commerce and the cost of it has been prohibitive for a little has been prohib prohibitive for a little while. Um, but recently the cost has come down. So it is actually feasible for brands to be putting this on their packaging, embedding it into their products, etc. Amazing. I I listened to another podcast that you did and you were talking about how you this was originally an AR idea. idea and how that has transformed into the tab now?

Yeah. So, TAP started as a company called Helper Help AR. Um, and I had this vision and dream of becoming the how-to app for everything. Um, so today if you have a question and like your printer breaks down or your coffee, you got a new coffee machine, whatever. I hated the little um, guides like the little manuals that you had to read through. Um, and I have a background in emerging technologies. I'm a really big proponent of extended reality technologies like AR and VR. Um, and I was like, what if we lived in a world where anything was wrong, my printer's not working, and I could just hold up my phone to it. It tells me, okay, this light is blinking, which means XYZ thing is wrong. Maybe your printer is jammed or you need to replace the toner. And then as I'm trying to fix it on my screen, it's showing me what to do. So, it's telling me, hey, press this button right here. And because the camera is overlaid, I can actually see on my camera, okay, it's telling me to press this button, open the drawer, remove the jam, whatever. Um, now imagine you could do that for any object in the world. And the funny thing with that company was we actually got the technology to work. Uh we even got a patent around using LLMs to scale the augmented reality piece of this. Um but I think the business model wasn't quite there um in terms of like who would pay for it, what a lot of that stuff just didn't make sense. Um, but the kind of core findings from what we were doing with helper helped us get to where we are with tap for sure.

Interesting. Yeah, AR is still a bit underserved. I think it's not there yet. People don't use it as much. People would rather just take a screenshot and go to chat and ask the uh ask why is it not working? And I agree like when you buy a printer when it comes with the the even like how to set up a printer.

I hate that. I would rather watch a video on YouTube or something like than read that manual on how to do that. That's so interesting. Um so what have you learned so far in your journey at the tap like and how has the business evolved and what kind of customers are you working with?

Wow. Um, what have we learned in our journey at TAP? Um, as a founder, I've really learned that patience is a virtue. So, something I'm really working on is being impatient with action, but being patient with results. Um, we didn't really set out to create a new category, but we found ourselves in the position that we are. Um, which is really exciting and it's really fun, but it takes time and I'm a very impatient person when it comes to results. So, I'm really learning how to take it day by day and like things move at the pace that they move and like we can only control what we can control. Um, but outside of that, I think what I've really learned is there's a lot of opportunity. um when you dig into a space and really try to understand it from the perspective of the end user um especially in commerce I think there's so much open space for really cool innovations that I think brands would be really happy with and their customers would be really happy with so that's been really exciting for us like figuring out little pieces and pockets that we think we can actually make better through using through technology and design and behavioral science um and how the company has evolved. So, um when we started TAP, we were just trying to figure out like exactly what problem we're solving. So, the interesting thing is our product hasn't changed all that much um in the time since we started this version of or this pivot of helper to tap. Um of course, it's gotten better, but like the core product vision and what we're building hasn't changed at all at all really. Um, but what is consistently changing is how we're positioning it to brands and the market and exactly how we're talking about the value. So, I made all of the mistakes that I think a lot of first-time founders make, even though I went to business school and I should not have made these mistakes. But, um, you kind of fall into this trap of, okay, I'm building this really cool thing and solving all of these 20 problems that you don't even know you have, but if you solve them, like it's just going to like completely crush everything for you. Um, and I think what we've been learning is that's a lot. Like, brands have so much going on. And it's such a tough market at the moment. So, I mean, it's very like um basic advice that any entrepreneur is given, but I've just learned in my time doing it that focus is key. So, entrepreneurship to me now is more about what you say no to than what you say yes to. Um, and how you really kind of figure out what things you should be saying yes to because there's a million ways you could go with anything on any given day. Um, what do you say no to? I think is the big question.

I know there's like so many shiny object syndromes nowadays. And uh, especially when you're selling a product, you have to really communicate the value. And you'll hear a lot of people

uh, they're like, I get it. I get it. But they're not going to buy,

you know?

So, how do you actually convert that uh, explanation into someone actually buying the product? And I am personally really really excited because e-commerce is changing so much right now. Like people are buying on Tik Tok a lot. Tik Tok shop has gone crazy. Uh we're seeing the rise of apps like whatnot

which is going crazy right now. People are selling laboo. I go there every day. I don't even I don't even buy. I'm just going there for entertainment. Like I just go there. People are selling laboo, reselling sneakers, and it's just fun to watch. They're selling a5, $10 item into like4, $70 and within a minute, and there's 200 people watching the stream. So, live shopping was a huge trend in China, but it took kind of like forever for us to catch up. But now, I think it's like finally catching up,

and we're seeing the rise of like screen time now. Even with older people, it's like nine to 10 hours on average,

but some things are the same. Do you do you um remember Neopets like back in the day in like the early 2000s? I feel like Laboo is just the like new Neopets. Like that's how that's the vibe, but it's like, oh, like everyone wants all these different laboo that like do these different things. And I remember as a kid like just wanting to get all the Neopets and putting them into like this world. It was just really fun. So I it's it is definitely evolving, but it's fun to see how some of these trends make their way back just in different forms.

So every decade a toy company goes viral. So in ' 80s we had Cabbage Patch Kids. In ' 90s we had Beanie Babies. Uh in 2000s we had like Pokemon and there was like and then 2010s we saw like Bear Bricks and Cause

and now it's Laboo. So every every 10 years I I guess people are colle collectors in a way even if they agree or not people love hoarding stuff and they they love collecting stuff you know and

it's you know there's this thing when uh when there's a financial downturn going on in the economy people love acquiring products that

that's true yeah

that calms them down and I guess labu is in a in a way it's like a plushy which makes them feel calmer Right. Right.

That's true.

Yeah. It's I'm really excited how e-commerce is going to change in the next three to five years. I know I saw that Amazon was going to get a acquired Tik Tok. I I was really looking forward to it, but I it hasn't happened.

Um what what what other trends or ideas or things that you have observed just serving the ecom industry? I think the biggest trend that brands need to prepare for is AI commerce. So conversational commerce showing up in LLMs, tragic, perplexity, whatever models people are using. Um I think brands are already starting to see that there's traffic coming to their websites or um just volume that's being driven through through these new channels. Um, and I think the name of the game in the next three to five years is going to be which brands are able to even like show up, but retention is going to be where it really matters. Um, I think the way that AI commerce is changing things is it's completely dismantling the current funnel, right? Because right now what marketers are trying to do is be top of mind. you're trying to like put a bunch of ads out and hopefully after 14 or 15 times that someone sees your product, they go and buy it. That's very different than a consumer going to chat GPT and being like, "Hey, I'm having trouble sleeping or I'm trying to solve whatever problem. What products should I be using to solve that issue and it's just going to give you the first five?"

And if you don't show up in the first five, you are invisible to that customer. you don't have the option of like sending ads and like maybe showing up enough times that someone sees you. Now the question then becomes how do you rank on LLM and all of that data is about post-purchase retention. It's about reviews. It's about who's talking about you. It's about zero and firstparty data that brands just don't have access to today because it hasn't been um the piece that has helped brands grow. But I think in this next like piece of h the in the next version of what ecom is becoming that zero and firstparty data is not going to be a nice to have that's going to differentiate the good brands from the from the best ones. That zero and firstparty data from your customers is going to be the differentiation between if you live or die. Um and I think that is a fundamental shift for brands that they're going to have to make. So, I'm already starting to see all these companies pop up. Like, we had all these SEO agencies and now we have GEO agencies. Um, and I just think it's going to continue to become a center of like where brands need to spend their energy.

That's so true. Uh, there's a lot of companies that I've been keeping tabs on in the GEO space,

but the issue right now is because there are so many LLMs there. There's Chad, Grock, uh,

right? like Claude, they're not revealing their numbers or like they're like we don't have a Google Trends version of Chad GPG yet.

So, it's still hard to calculate the return on like if it's actually working or not.

Right now, there's only one way to check it. You actually manually search for a product in your niche and hopefully your product shows up. But you're absolutely right. people need to somehow rank in these LLMs to get even noticed. But on the on the flip side, I also think

content is also changing a lot now with V3 and you know AI generated content. Like you can make a $500,000 commercial in like $2,000 with V3.

So I personally learn about new brands through Instagram reels. And you know, it's funny like some before I used to think Instagram res is just brain rot and like this is this is not going anywhere. But now I actually enjoy it because I mark um like all this educational content as like favorite and I'm like give me more of this, give me more of this, right?

And I'm actually learning a lot about like interesting products through Instagram reels. And what that taught me is that young people get their news from Instagram and Tik Tok now. And also there's there's this huge trend about building in public which people are you know doing and sharing like authentic lives behind building the company. So yeah I do agree there's going to be oh my god as a brand owner you can be overwhelmed about how many things you have to do.

So much going on. Yeah,

cuz initially I think but I also think people should not lose foresight about making a great product because at the end of the day you can make the best content in the world but your product has to be like your product has to market itself and I want people to click on the tab thing and get a crazy experience.

Yeah. No, I I totally agree. And I think to your point around Tik Tok or Instagram reels, I'm not saying any of that stuff is going away. It's just that the marketing funnel is shifting, right? So, it's going to be less about the ads I see that just feel like normal ads, right? When I'm on Instagram right now, like I get ads every two clicks and it's kind of annoying.

But I agree, when I'm on TikTok or I'm on Instagram reels and I see

whether it's a familiar unfamili familiar face, it doesn't matter. but a real person that's like talking about a product. I think what's also shifting in the content space is we're going from influencer or even micro influencer driven um marketing to just everyday person marketing. So now I see people that like have not even like a thousand followers, but if you have enough people that are just like every day, for me, like brown girls like me, right, that are like maybe living in New York, I see so much content from people that are just like talking about their day and they're just talking about something random, but they happen to mention, oh, I use this beauty product or I use the supplement product or I'm wearing this outfit today. And that's where that like authenticity piece matters so much. So the question still becomes that's still a retention question, right? So how do you get people that have bought your product to engage with your brand in a way that's meaningful for them and for you? Uh but today there just isn't a great channel other than email, SMS, and website for brands to create that community, right? To like help those people talk about their brands or reward them for talking about their brands. None of that just like it just doesn't exist. So um I totally agree with you. none of those channels are going away. I think just where the value or how the value is then uh materialized is changing a lot. Um even today like I don't think this is 10 years away. This is happening this year. Um and brands need to I think a lot of brands are thinking about how they want to keep up with it.

So let's do like a kind of like a fictional thing. For example, this is Cog Zero. Uh, if there was a tap tag on it and um I I tap it and I get some kind of an experience on it, what would be like kind of an experience you would pitch Coca-Cola to do on the Coca-Cola Zero?

Coke Zero and Coca-Cola is such a cool brand like they just have so much content, right? So the question to me becomes, okay, the beautiful thing is that all of this content exists. We're not with any of the experiences we're creating, we're not creating anything that new. In fact, our apps are up and running within like a day or two for these brands because we've built a bunch of internal AI tools that go out, we scrape their content from websites, social, YouTube, their internal email campaigns. Um, and we can create these apps really quickly, right? Um, so the question to me is less about like what experience, not one experience that you're pitching, but the question to me is with Coca-Cola, you have millions of pieces of content that are out there, there's probably millions of different types of modules you can pick. So in a world where you have one screen, there's an experience and let's say you can put max 10 to 15 modules on an experience every month, right? You don't want to overwhelm your customers. What do you show, man versus what do you show ish?

Because when you and I go to Instagram, I'm assuming our Instagram feeds look pretty different. Our Tik Tok like algorithm feels really different.

So why is it that our engagement with the brands that we care about is the exact same. It doesn't make sense. The reason you're drinking Coca-Cola might be completely different than my reason for drinking Coca-Cola. Or the way that you like to engage with brands might be through like gamified experiences. And for me, I may just really like like communitydriven stuff and I want to see what other people are doing with it. So, it's a non-answer to your question, but it is my answer, which is there shouldn't be one experience. Like, I wouldn't pitch one experience to Coca-Cola. My pitch would be, hey, here's the millions of types of content you have out there. Now, what our algorithm is going to do, at least this is where we're moving towards, is we're going to understand what each person likes to engage with about your brand. We're going to create categories of personas of consumers and then we'll show people things that are most relevant and interesting to them to keep them engaged with your brand. So, um I think that's more where this gets really interesting around not just like um one membership experience for everybody. It's a personalized experience that every consumer can have with the brand that they're purchasing from.

Two things. Uh, I think I really like how you said you can build an app overnight, which is incredible. Like, wow. That the speed of that is incredible in my opinion.

Um, I do agree. Like, when a if a brand makes me follow their Instagram, I'll do it. Like, I don't care. Yeah. And

that might like subconsciously show me a content like 3 days later that might make me purchase Coke again. So I do think there is a subconscious factor as well when you do these kind of experiences. Um

I want to know what's your daily AI tech stack because you seem like you you use a lot of latest AI tools.

We do. I will say my CTO is great at that. So I don't know like exactly every model that we're using but what I do know is that every week it's changing. So, one week we're using

cloud models to like I know we use a lot of cloud to do some of our coding and cursor and all that stuff.

Um, but in terms of categorization of content versus like we're never we're not generating new content. So, that's one thing that we've kind of like taken a stand on because it's hard for brands to monitor that stuff and the content already exists. So, we want to take stuff that you've already approved. But I kid you not, like every two weeks we're testing different models and with the pace at which these AI tools are moving, we're consistently changing because we'll get pretty good with one model and they'll be like, "Oh, like now this new thing has come out with anthropics models versus OpenAI's models versus graph versus whatever." And um it's cons literally I can't tell you the answer because every two weeks it changes.

And are you public about the business model of the tab or is it more like a enterprise custom solution? No, we're very open. I think I'm a big believer in transparency around pricing. So, um, our pricing is very subscriptionbased. So, depending on how many members you have as part of our experience, it can cost anywhere between $500 a month um up to $8,000 a month. Um, and it really depends on how many members you have and then if you have any custom modules that are in there. So, if we're building a game for you, like a really super branded game, then it's going to be on the higher end of that experience or of that range, but if you're kind of just doing the yepish, like give me your basic app that you generate overnight, $500.

I love that. I love that. This can go in so many different places. I I love the the the boundless oper like, you know, you can take this in so many different directions. like

it's it's it's really a great idea in my opinion and it's it is innovative

and I I even think like older people are also

becoming really techsavvy like even my mom I've noticed she didn't even grow up with a computer but she

knows how to do all these like scanning and tapping and everything she knows everything and

she is okay

she does yeah and she I'm I'm like wow the these older people are also taking advantage of these things.

Last question I want to ask you. Uh

this is more of a my personal question because I really want to do the executive uh MBA program at Stanford. I wanted to I wanted to know how was a Stanford MBA for you? Like what what did you enjoy the most about it?

Oh man, I think if you ask any of us that have gone through the program, um I would say most of us would tell you it's probably the two best years of your life. Um, it truly is. Um, I think Stanford is a magical place where dreams can come true. And that sounds really cheesy, but it it is really true. I think here's kind of how I describe it to people. Before I went to Stanford, I didn't go to any like super fancy schools or had super fancy jobs. Um, I had good jobs, but they weren't like the crazy kind. Um, and I feel like I've always wanted to do something important in this world, whatever that ended up being. But when I used to say I want to change the world, I don't know that I believed that I could do that. And I think not that it's any specific person, but I felt like people around me would be like, oh, that's so nice. Like what a good aspiration to have.

Yeah. at Stanford when I said I wanted to change the world, every single person around me would look at me and be like, "Bet, me, too." And

yeah,

I can't fully describe like how empowering that feeling is where you're surrounded by people that want to crush the world. I think like the the GSB's motto is change lives, change organizations, change the world. Um, and that ethos is like built into every single person in my class. And I think that's where the magic comes from, right? Like the place is magical for sure. You have access to amazing people, amazing classes, amazing opportunities, but at the end of the day, the magic comes from people. And when you can curate a space of people that make things feel possible that felt impossible before, um, there's no better place to be. Like if I could do it again, I 100% would.

You know, I used to live on the Stanford campus even though I never went to Stanford.

I was living in Redwood. Yeah, I was living on Red Living in Redwood City. So, I would just hang out at Stanford every day and just talk.

What was your favorite spot on campus?

For me, I love to work out. So, it was the track and the gym. Yeah, the gym and the track.

Which one? They have so many. It's crazy.

Yeah. I mean it's people need to actually go and visit Stanford because when I went to Harvard I was underimpressed by because when after seeing Stanford Stanford is the whole city you know I I I forgot

it has its own zip code.

Stanford has

exactly it's like 5,000 acres or 50,000 acres. I don't even know the exact number.

It's it's massive. Yeah. Uh before I'll actually what's if there's a brand watching this and they want to know more about the tap, how can they get a hold of you or uh how can they reach out to you?

Um you can always go to our website to learn a little bit more. It's thetap with two ps.io. Um so t-ap p.io. Um or just email me ishthetap.io. Um, I think those are probably the two easiest ways to get in touch. But, um, to any brands that are watching, um, the world is changing, but I think it's a really exciting time. And the more you can lean into the beautiful curated brand that you've created and help your customers feel authentically a part of it, um, the more you're just going to win across any channel, across any platform. So, we'd love to talk.

Yeah. And if you're watching this episode, remember, don't do what everyone is doing. So you got to innovate and stand out from the herd of what everyone's doing. So I think this is still an underserved new form of marketing that brands are going to catch up to. And right now I still think like it is there is a novelty aspect to it as well. Uh especially with a lot of older people like I don't think I I have personally never tapped on a product. So I I would say this is very innovative. It's re really new. Uh the NFC technology is kind of taking off and thanks to Ishida, uh more and more brands are going to be doing this and they're going to see higher ROI and better results with their marketing. So thank you Shida for building this company. Um thank you guys for watching. I'll see you in the next episode.

Thanks. So glad we got to do this.