How I Built a Social App That Made $2M in a Year | NGL Founder Story

Creating a social app is a masterclass in human psychology. It is all about psychology. I think to get a user to just like enjoy the process, enjoy this app versus an actual product or service. Hunter Isacson, co-founder of Bags and MGL with over 300 million plus downloads is an American entrepreneur, product designer, and viral growth hacker. I would love to understand a little bit more about habits and behaviors of Gen Z. They care about impact, but more of just like can I get views, can I get clout, can I get attention? Step one from ideiation to launching the app. So, I figure out what the onboarding is going to be and what the data I need for the accounts are and then ask my devs, "What do you think about this?" A lot of the times my devs just tell me like, "That's going to take us like, you know, a week. Do you really want to do that?" Like, no, I don't. The app store is a pure meritocracy. There are no shortcuts to the top spot. You're all given the same tools and whoever puts them together in the right package goes number one. Do you think it's fair Apple takes 30%. No, we could do a whole podcast just on that. So, I want to quickly mention how I found you. Yeah. So, I've been obsessed with mobile apps for the last six months. Okay. And I saw a few people on Twitter, yourself, Nikita, and then I saw Blake Anderson. Like, you guys are posting amazing insights about growing uh mobile apps and I just wanted to thank you for that. My pleasure, man. That's why I do it and hopefully people get value out of it. Amazing. So few things I wanted to ask you like why did you decide to only focus on social apps early on in in your career? Because I feel like creating a social app is a master class in human psychology. Yeah. Why did you pick such a hard thing to do? You know, I uh I didn't think it would be as hard as it was when I started. I'll be honest with you. I was 18. I had just graduated high school. I had an idea for an app like most 18-year-old kids do. And I I honestly thought that it would be easy. I thought, "Oh, this will take me six months maybe to build and you know, I'll, you know, be a billionaire by 21, right?" Just the classic, you know, young person, you think it's going to be easier. Um, and then I spent two and a half years failing. And during those first two and a half years, I did realize like, okay, I am way over my head on this and like I don't know what I'm doing. Um, but it is all about psychology. I think mostly because with social apps, you're essentially selling air, right? You're you're selling a feeling. Um, you're not it's not like a SAS business. It's not like, you know, a fintech business like you're simply selling like can you engineer the right dopamine response, the right different, you know, responses in the brain to get a user to just like enjoy the process, enjoy this app versus an actual product or service. So that's why I think it is all about psychology. I think you're selling friendship in a way you are. Yeah. Belonging. Yeah. You're selling uh a way for people to connect with other people. Yes. which is a very intangible thing. Great. Yeah. And I I I read that you've launched a bunch of different apps until you found like the one that really went bananas. So, can you talk a little bit about the app Leader and Zoom University that you launched before? Yeah. So, uh Leader was my first app. I was 18 when I started it. The idea behind Leader was it was like um Foursquare for Gen Z. So, it's like you go to locations, you pick up points, you get ranked on, you know, on leaderboards with your friends, you make content. Um, it was a very like realworld type of app. And then COVID came and it was just like, well, this is this is over. Um, I was able to raise $150,000. I was like 19, you know, I burned through that money. Um, but learned a lot from it. Then about 6 weeks after that app failed, I built Zoom University with a couple of friends. Um, was actually with a friend of mine I built it with last night, which is funny. But um yeah, we we basically with Zoom University um the idea was simple. It was like COVID was happening right now. You had all these college kids that just like, you know, they're bored, they're lonely, they want to hang out with people. And um it was just like the perfect branding, too, cuz it was like the meme was Zoom University that was like on the internet. We made like Facebook groups and we were like pushing content. We built like the first version of the product was like built off of Zoom like with like sending meeting links and everything. And then we built an app and that one did probably I don't know, a couple hundred thousand downloads and it was like the first one that worked that gave me like the the confidence that like, okay, this is possible. Did you ever get a notice by Zoom to take on the app? I've gotten lots of seats and assists. Yeah, I collect them all. I got one from Zoom. Yes. So, your original thinking to launching social apps was was it something around network effects? I mean, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. So, inherently it has to be sharable. I I think for a social app for social specifically yes it has to be sharable. Um that's like the most important thing that I focus on. Interesting. So what did you realize about NGL? Like okay what was the inception of the idea about NGL and can you talk a little bit about anonymous apps? For sure. I mean um NGL was a brainchild of just like me and a couple of guys. Um Instagram had just launched the link sharing for every user. So, previously you need to have 10,000 followers. Um, and then the second that this feature launched, I remember getting on the phone with friends of mine and like just like what are we going to build, you know? And then very quickly it was decided we're going to build anonymous messaging for Instagram uh because it was the biggest opportunity, you know, we had also we had seen, you know, previous apps like Sarah and Yolo and all these other apps that came before us that had done really well on Snapchat. So, we figured, well, we we could just replicate that on Instagram and Instagram's a bigger channel. Um, and then it took about six months from the time that we built it and launched it to the time that actually it went viral. And yeah, it was it was basically crickets for six months. Nobody used it. And uh, but I I always had a feeling that it would work. I just knew that it would require enough like initial density to like break through that and like get those clusters of friends to all share at the same time. And then once that happened, it just went super viral. How do you validate an idea for an app like if it's going to work or not? It's hard honestly to like like to validate it. I don't have like a process to be perfectly honest with you. I think it's more of just like looking at what the core metrics are that I care about, right? I care about, you know, I care about like making sure everyone gets through onboarding, right? Like, you know, making sure that the retention is pretty good, that the churn is minimized, at least in the beginning. Um, that you can get some decent monetization. Like, you need to kind of get some numbers. Um, but a lot of the times people will will like give up on an app idea before they've kind of gotten to that point. And that's why I'm always like, you just need to exhaust all your options. And if you've exhausted all your options and it's still not working, it's still not hitting, then okay, move on. But most people want to quit and they have yet to actually exhaust every option and try every channel and get all everyone activated. Do you think Tik Tok is the channel right now for promoting apps? Right now, yes, I think it is. Um, you know, me and my friends were doing Tik Tok French fresh account strategy in 2019, you know, like so like we were we were doing this years ago and uh, you know, 2020 really heavily. You know, we we kind of were figuring out all the tricks of the algorithm years ago. I think that now it's definitely the place to be for sure for apps. And you eventually pivoted to bags. Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about the inception of the idea for bags. Mhm. And what was the overall trend you were noticing? Yeah, so I mean I've been in crypto since 2017. I joined when Bitcoin was $1,000. I was a broke high school student, so I didn't buy a lot of Bitcoin back then, but I loved it and I was I just thought that it was like worldchanging technology. I wanted to build in crypto. Actually, my first app, I wanted to be crypto, but it was just too hard back then. Um, and it's still very hard, but it was just too difficult. Um what I really believe with crypto is that um you know sovereignty and like personal sovereignty and personal freedom is really important especially to our generation and I think that the you know the the education around money has been like very lackluster to non-existent in this country and I think that young people especially you know in Gen Z and my generation like really have struggled financially and financial literacy and investing and spending and all these other things. I'm like, well, if we just put this on crypto rails, make it social, make it fun, I think that we can build a bank for, you know, all of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. So, let's talk a little bit about Pump Fun. Yep. Pump Fund really democratized meme coins and uh I read some stat, I could be wrong, uh that over 7 million tokens were created on Pump Fun. Yeah. Tens of thousands a day. So, why did you decide to make bags a mobile app instead of like a web app? Well, mobile, I think, is a bigger opportunity. That's kind of why I wanted to do mobile. Um, I looked at like the biggest crypto apps and where they were and a lot of them are on web. And I figured, well, let me just go mobile because I know mobile better. And also like I think that crypto needs to go mobile and has to go native mobile to like really break out. You know, you have to be in the app store. It's just kind of one of those like trust factors, especially with like financial apps. So, how is the bags app different from Robin Hood? Uh, well, with bags, it's focused mainly on Salana and Salana coins that you can buy. Um, you know, eventually I'd like to support stocks. I'd like to support bonds, like to support everything humanly possible, bank accounts. Um, but right now we focus on just like where the attention is. The attention is in meme coins. The attention's in Salana. And, you know, that's why we decided like let's start here. But the idea of bags is not to be this forever. Like I I really wanted to build a business that like I could evolve and I could really you know build something that I could work on for five plus years that also can like you know more of like um I guess like an adult company you know that I can really like push forward hire a great team build a tech stack that's really strong like create a moat you know I just wanted to do something different I think with memecoins you're just kind of like monetizing attention and news cycles. Yeah. So, can you talk a little bit about how memecoins are the new form of casino or it's it's it's kind of like gambling with entertainment, right? Yeah, it is for sure. Um, you know, I think it's all about betting on attention in the day. Like, the internet is all betting on attention. So, I think that meme coins is just quantifying that and, you know, there's good and there's bad. I do think that we're in a you know, we're definitely in a period of the market where it seems like a lot of people are tired of meme coins, at least in this current in this current iteration. Yeah, but every crypto cycle there's new asset classes, right? So, I feel like last cycle we had NFTs, the cycle before was like the ICO cycle. I think that like we've yet to see what the asset class is this time around. I think this just cuz this is like just a different kind of bull market. You know, we have a pro crypto president now, regulations laxing. Um things are going to shift quickly. M and it's also the trend of people spending so much time online and a lot of people would does do not prefer to go to a casino and play poker in in in like in real life. They would rather be on their computer and do four things at once. And a lot of people don't want to like go on, you know, a rubet, roll bit or stake and, you know, play casino games with crypto. they would rather just, you know, get the same effect of the gambling by buying, you know, a memecoin cuz it's like essentially the same thing but but simpler. Uh, I do want to talk a little bit about the monetization. So, in NGL, what was the way, what was the business model behind the app? And so, NGL is a subscription um based model. It's a weekly subscription. Um, you know, a small percentage of the hundreds of millions of users ended up actually going through it. Um, and it's essentially just a more premium version of the app where we give you insights on the people that send you messages. So, if you want to know who are these people, where are they, what's their, you know, what's their deal, like, you know, you can get that information. Um, but it is still anonymous, right? Like, um, we don't reveal the name of the person mostly because like we don't know. Um, there are some rare circumstances where we do know and if we do, we do display it. But um for the most part it's more about just like accessing more understanding and functionality of like who sent you the messages and you know all that stuff. That's so interesting. I I like the fact that you've been targeting Gen Z for most of your apps and even if you look at YouTube like uh the big demographic on YouTube is the Gen Z like like the kind of people Mr. Beast and the big creators they target. Um I'm not Gen Z myself. I'm a millennial, but I would love to understand a little bit more about the habits and behaviors of Gen Z. Uh cuz they spend so they're so I mean I have a lot of friends who are like 21 22 like I was when I compare myself when I was 21 I was so dumb like compared to compared to them right now you know. Yeah. I mean Gen Z is very different. I think I think Gen Z um they care a lot about I think a few things. I think they care a lot about belonging and community more than really any other generation has cared about that. Um I think they really they care about impact and like you know in a social way, right? Like and the impact could be you know not like positive impact like we're thinking of but more of just like can I get views? Can I get clout? Can I get attention? They care a lot about just impacting kind of pushing the narrative forward. I think that Gen Z has struggled a lot with just like stability of our times. You know I think we grew up in like Q48. our parents were suffering from financial things then you know COVID happens when I was in college lots of my friends were you know high school college or just right postgrad I think Jenz's suffered a lot and I think that Jenz also lives in a post-truth era we live in an era where like my truth is my truth it's relative um which is very fascinating for like the social dynamics of Gen Z because I think that they're a very like um very caring and compassionate generation and very sensitive generation um just because like I feel like we've never had stability now it's kind of just been this you know, 20 year period of instability. And Gen Z does not believe in higher education. No, they do not. They do not believe in the 9 to5. No, they the the narrative has changed a lot from exploring like STEM degrees to a lot of like the creators. Yes. Which is a sad reality. Yeah. In a way. But it's just a it's incentives. You know, people are motivated by incentives. Absolutely. It's all about incentives. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. And then in terms of bags, how do you monetize bags? Is is this more like a transactional fees? Yes. So with bags, we take a a small fee per transaction um buys and sells, not on sending and receiving obviously. Um and then we pass uh between 50 and 75% of those fees back to for example, if you know, you drop your bags link, your friend signs up, and then he trades, you earn his fees, right? And if you're, you know, if you, if you buy a token, someone sees that you bought a token on the for you page, they buy it, then you get the fee, right? So, it's like I'm really trying to create a structure where, you know, the people benefit, not just the platform. So, we give back like majority of what we get. Interesting. Um, for people who are watching, they look at your success, they're like, "Hunter, please help me. Please help me launch a mobile app." So, can we dumb it down for people who want to launch a mobile app? Um from my understanding you you you can hire a designer to design the app on Figma and then you basically hire developers but I want to know what's your process of uh step one from ideiation to launching the app on the app store. Like step one with ideation I think a lot of it is just thinking through the idea and you know sometimes I'll do a write up sometimes I'll like you know just word salad just you know put everything on the page. um just figure out like what the core experience is like what's that core that core uh that core loop if it's you know sharable or that that core onboarding experience that funnel um once I kind of know what that is I would just jump into Figma start designing do branding colors get the I usually just do the onboarding really quickly because I got to get all the data that I need depending on the app some apps obviously the onboarding is really long and it's like I said more of a funnel where you kind of end with some kind of monetization event or in some cases of NGL the the the onboarding is extremely quick. You know, it's a couple steps. You get through it in, you know, 15 20 seconds. Um, so I figure out what the onboarding is going to be and what the data I need for the accounts are. Then I'll go in like, you know, just screen by screen and I'll just design the entire thing. Um, and then yeah, I go to devs and I ask my devs, what do you think about this? Are there technical issues that you think that we're going to run into if we do it like this? Is this too complicated? A lot of the times my devs just tell me like that's going to take us like you know a week. Do you really want to do that? I'm like no I don't obviously. So a lot of like prioritization. Um so like dumbing it down figuring out like okay what's that core that core uh that core app flow and once I do that the devs will build it and then we'll go through a series of iteration. We'll go through different builds. We'll get test flights and I'll be sending screenshots from the test flights with drawing on them and getting everybody to you know kind of fix the problems. Um, and then we just submit to the app store. And then the really the then after that the whole goal becomes how do we just like drop a thousand people into this just see what they do. And how do you initially do the organic marketing? So I usually will do um Tik Tok is a is a great way just you know see what see what you can get. Um so I'll do like Tik Tok UGC you know work with agencies, work with creators, work with people that I know. Um and just try to like test formats. Um, and then once you get a winning format, you just use that as an ad or you cut it and you create variations and you run them on on fresh accounts. Um, but you know, yeah, that's kind of it's funny that's really it's actually what we're doing now with bags is like we had been focusing purely on like this technical mode of like creating really good a really good trading app that's reliable and fast and performant. And now we're really focusing on how do we just activate more people? How do we get more funded accounts? How do we bring more people into the app? You know, make it better for everybody. M I have personally hired a lot of people from Ukraine. Mhm. I've got some really good talent from like Europe personally like I've hired people from India. Uh but I've had better luck with hiring people from Europe especially like Eastern Europe like Ukraine and Barus. Man, it's amazing. I have an engineer in Poland. Really? Yes. What's been your experience like working with developers? Like what country? I honestly I've had amazing experiences with developers in uh in Europe specifically. Haven't worked with a whole lot in uh India or Asia. Um but in Europe I've had amazing luck. Um actually all my engineers are in Europe uh for bags at least. I see. And how do you find them? A lot of it is um just through networking through socials uh and then like just going really hard and interviewing people. Um you know I have a head of operations that I think he did like 60 interviews. um which is crazy. Shout out Stu. Um he he went through and just talked to everybody and kind of built a built a catalog of like what kind of talent is out there. Um but hiring is very hard, especially in crypto. It's very difficult. I think that the the barrier really is like it's very complicated. There's minimal API documentation. You know, I've kind of had to learn that the technicality of it, you know, by being a builder and I just didn't realize how difficult it was. I didn't realize that oh actually it's really hard to find someone who knows React Native and understands you know Salana understands you know is also web 3 native and can kind of communicate with that. Um it's hard to find but I found amazing guys and and they're they're incredible. Yeah. Especially memecoins. They're so complicated. Yeah. Cuz there's like people using Telegram trading bots and this and that and there's there's gas fees and there's transaction fees and then Oh my god. Yeah. No, it's a mess, bro. That's a whole another thing you had to figure out probably. Cool. So, I want to I I actually read all your tweets and I want to I want to say your tweets and then I want you to explain them a little bit more. Okay. Okay. So, the first one, the app store is a pure meritocracy. Getting to number one overall, which I've done multiple times in 150 countries is extremely difficult. There are no shortcuts to the top spot. So, I believe that it is a pure meritocracy. there is no way of actually um fudging the numbers and there's no way of you know there's there's no fraud there. It's very hard you know I've never I haven't seen it. It's very it's it's pure if it goes number one it goes number one and it goes number one because people are using it. So I think that like it is a business that is it's radically fair in that way that like if you actually you know everyone's kind of operating all these teams are operating using the same software kind of building on the same thing building the same rectangle same phone and you're all given the same tools and whoever puts them together in the right package goes number one. So, I think it's pure. I think it's honest. I think it's like kind of like a source of truth. Like you can really see like what are people using? Because I think that the app store is the window into pop culture and into how we experience society because we currently use our phones to experience everything. You think it's fair Apple takes 30%. No. That's like the mafia tax. We can do a whole podcast just on that. Um, no. I don't think it's fair. I think it's fair that they take something, but I don't think it's fair that they take 30%. And I and I and every single developer would agree with me. Um, but you know, we unfortunately live in an environment where there are two companies, you know, so if there's a third one that comes out of nowhere, um, and builds a new phone and builds a new operating system that people like, then sure, we could have a shot at that. But the 30% is very hard. Uh, especially because if a lot of people don't know this, but you know, if you get into the small business program, which is less than $1 million a year, you have to apply first. So, if you get into that, if you make a million and $10,000, it's not like a tiered system on taxes. You just you go from making, you know, $850,000 off the million to making 700,000. So, it's like that's not quite fair. I think that the system is needs to be updated because a lot of young people are going to enter apps a lot and there it's already happening and they're going to get turned off to that business model of having the silent partner that is approving everything you do or disapproving it. Interesting. Okay, next read. Uh, I heard you say this on another podcast. If you build companies for the seven deadly sins, you'll become rich and successful. Can you explain? Yeah. Um, you know, if you look at like the seven deadly sins, I I don't know all the top of my head, but if you look at them, you know, greed, lust, you know, all those, I think that that is the most like electrically charged emotion, right? So, it's like if you want to like really get someone to use it, you create those emotions which then kind of hooks them into the product. Um, and it's like it's true. You know, there's a lot a lot of dark patterns that exist in in building apps and you know, a lot of a lot of weird goes on behind the scenes, especially at the big companies. Um, but I do believe that yeah, it's it's not just apps. Like, it's it's honestly it's any business, right? If you build for the the sins, right? If you appeal to that, you're always going to make money. but you're probably not going to have good impact, right? That's that's the like trade-off there. Um, one of the trends if for people older audience who don't use Tik Tok is looks maxing. Yes. And looks act can you explain what that is? So I know about looks maxing from my friend Blake Anderson um who built UMAX and he sent that to me right before he started it and that's how I learned about this whole thing. Uh, looks matching is just like making yourself look better and caring about your physique, caring about your clothes, caring about your everything, you know, just making yourself the best version of yourself. Interesting. Versus kind of, you know, just being a slob and not caring. I feel like looks maxing is like it doesn't need to be, you know, guys trying to look like, you know, like like, you know, buff Chads, right? It's more of just like taking care of yourself. Interesting. So, that's another category people can build around. Lots of opportunities there. Um, what do you think about the rise of AI? Cuz uh, one of the apps is Cal AI, which also part Blake did, but I was a little skeptical because I was not sure about the efficacy, like the accuracy of the AI predicting the calories in the food. How do you feel about that? So, I mean, I love Blake. I love Zach. Great guys. Uh, amazing product. Um, I think with AI, it's just going to get better. I think that whatever it is today, let's just wait three months, wait six months, wait a year, it's going to get better. Um, the accuracy, I mean, I think it's pretty accurate. I know that obviously it can't get everything. You know, it doesn't know if the food was cooked in butter or cooked in seed oils, right? That's a great example. If you don't know the true macros, um, just from that specific example, but it's very accurate. Cali is super accurate. And, uh, I just love what they're doing over there. I love that group of guys. They're, uh, they're great. It's smart because the real pain point is my fitness pal. It's like I've used My Fitness Pal after 2 days you lose interest. Yeah. Because the inputting the calorie like the product is so boring. Yeah. And just taking a photo is so easy. Way way way easier. You said everything in your life is your fault. The good things and the bad. Adopt this mindset and you'll go very far. True. Um I think that people try to blame others when you really should just blame yourself. Um I think that that's something that I'm always trying to get better at. I think that's not something that you just like figure out one day. It's like a process over time of like realizing, you know, when something bad happens to you, like how did you contribute to that? Like did you contribute at all? Sometimes, sometimes rarely, you didn't. Um, but almost always you can see that you did contribute to that. Um, so I just like radical acceptance and just personal honesty. I think that's what that's about. Total ownership. Yeah, total ownership. It's important. Love that. Um, I want to know why like um why just social labs? Why not gaming? Why not fintech? Why not like health and wellness? You know, I did a lot of other categories. Um, social was just the most fun. That's why I stayed in it. And then I did get to a point though with social where I decided like I wanted to go towards fintech, which is why I built bags. Um, but like social was just it was really fun, you know, and like I was I was building social apps in like 2017, 2018, 2019. And like I remember like the LA consumer scene in 2020 and 2021 like it was just like so small and everyone knew each other and um it just was like a group of friends and everyone was just building apps and just like you know this one's number one my other buddy's number one on the app store now I'm number one on the app store and it was just like this really fun environment um like a moment in time but now I'd say that I'm more I mean I'm not more I'm very much focused on uh on building uh fintech and my main focus is building bags. H yeah I mean imagine creating Tik Tok like how valuable is Tik Tok right now? Extremely valuable. My my first mentor was the former president of musically um and he was there from the very beginning and led the bike dance acquisition. So um crazy what happened with that company. Un unbelievable. It is one of the most valuable assets in the world now. And for someone who's like 21 right now, not as smart as you, like they just want to get involved in this industry, like how do they get started? Um, I like to say like pick a skill, you know. So, if you look at like consumer apps, you know, I think there's like three main skills you need. You need engineering talent, you need product talent, and you need growth talent. This can be one person, this can be three people, this can be five people. Doesn't matter, but you need all three of those skills in order to like actually launch. So, in the case of NGL, like I was product, one of my engineers or one of my co-founders was an engineer, the other co-founder was growth marketing, right? So it's like that was like a great like okay we have the skills we need with bags I do product and then my co-founders they do engineering and then we share growth right so it's like I think that you just need one of those so if you're starting if you're 21 I would say like look at design look at engineering and then look at like UGC Tik Tok growth figure out which one of those things you like because you're going to need to be one of those people in order to find the the complimentary skills from somebody else. And that's kind of how you start building teams. And if you just if you network with other people your age, there's a lot of 21 year olds that are extremely smart and that are very motivated and that are building. You have to just have a skill then kind of be a little bit known for that skill within your circle within your community, which could be a school, it could be, you know, a small town, whatever it is. But once you have that carved out, you can just go find people to just fill your skill tree. And how did you find your co-founders? So I I found them just because we were building apps in the same space and um was was it online? Did you find them online? Yeah, I did. Yes. It's I uh it was during co actually when I met my my co-founder of bags I've known him for many years and we met we met in a Discord server during co called Gen Z Mafia which is funny. That's funny. Yeah. And uh it's actually funny. A lot of a lot of the top crypto founders now were like in that Discord group altogether back in 2020. Um, so it's cool. It's a still a very small community. Amazing. Uh, I kind of want to put you on a spot. So I know you consult a lot of people now. I've seen you consult. Can you explain what kind of companies do you consult now? Um, I mean I consult with apps that I are really motivated to help. Right. I feel like that's just that main thing is uh it mostly apps sometimes websites but exclusively I'd say almost exclusively apps. M so and they're they're across all different ind like niches across everything. Yeah, I've worked with a lot of a lot of different companies. I think to the end I do want to talk a little bit about health. Yeah, for sure. So, can you talk about your own journey with health and yeah, what you what you've learned? So, I um I'd say I had my health awakening in probably 2020. That's when I had like most of my awakenings. Um and I just started like this is like a slow process. Um I got really dialed with health starting in 2022. Um just because like I remember talking with my doctor um who's like a longevity doctor and he was just like if you start now taking care of yourself then like when you're 30 40 like it's going to be totally different scenario than most people. So I I got like a I have a really great biohacking doctor that I take you know I do you know every six months do a full blood panel. Um I'm on supplements every single day. You know, I I'm taking, you know, everything that my body needs in order to like be peak performance and optimize. What supplements, bro? A lot. Uh, a lot. I mean, I I take like amino acids. I take uh, you know, Sheila. I I take, uh, lots of, you know, like DHEA, lots of like, you know, just things that like give me more energy, give me more focus, give me, you just more stamina. Um, it's really just like peak performance. Just trying to like, you know, if I could sleep a little bit less, get a little bit more done, be a little more focused, you know, minimize brain fog, that kind of stuff. It's interesting. Sheila Jet is actually a product coming from India. Yeah. I've been taking it for a while. It's amazing. Really? Yeah. I grew up in India, so I like I know where exactly where it comes from. That's great. So, I'm I'm I'm shocked that made it to a thing. And so on Tik Tok shop, you see a lot of these like Indian products like Indian hair care or Indian like I don't know soap or something and they're they're crushing it right now. Yeah. Uh great. I I want to end the podcast on the work life balance and like day in the life or what's the what's the day in the life look like for you? Because I'm chronically online. Mhm. Like even though I've mastered my sleep now, we were just talking um I I have the Whoop. I've mastered like I've been having consistent 100% sleep score every day, but my I'm chronically online. Yeah. How do you like how do we fix that? You know, it's definitely uh one of the problems of like our times, I guess. It's like it's like that's just what it is. And I think everyone struggles with it. For me, a day in my life, like I I wake up semi early. You I like to be awake like, you know, around 7 or something. Um sometimes earlier, depends. Um, I'll go to the gym most days. Um, I will try to eat super healthy in the morning, you know, if I get, you know, at minimum I'll drink some raw milk with some creatine in it. Um, and and or I'll, you know, make myself some eggs or something. Um, and I I try to do like, you know, four to six hours of deep work. That's like the goal. Um, but sometimes it could just it's me sitting there just banging my head against the wall trying to figure out, you know, answers to problems. Um, I do a lot of calls with, you know, both like my team and my co-founders and like um, you know, partners, stuff like that. And then, yeah, I mean, I I think a lot of the time my life's really boring just cuz I work a lot. Um, but like the the the balance part is what I've kind of really focused on over the last couple of months is like traveling more, hanging out with friends more, having more enriching experiences, you know, more creating more memories cuz I feel like, you know, I'm 25 now, so it's like this is like the time of my life to travel and to live, but but also continue working and and executing. Uh, one of the great apps that I found on the app store was Time Left. Have you heard of this app? I've heard of the app. Yes. So, this app basically makes you go on a random dinner with four or five other people every Wednesday and they're all across the world. That's funny. So, in terms of coming up with an idea for an app, what other like part of in the app industry like would you want to build or do you think there's an opportunity? So me personally, I I'm very motivated to build in in consumer fintech just because I think that that's the biggest um opportunity from in terms of like the biggest wealth transfer event in the history of my lifetime. So I'm motivated to build there, but um I wouldn't recommend if like you're getting into apps to jump to consumer fintech. It's very hard. Um, the areas that I really like honestly like I'm I'm very bullish on just like niche internet communities and building apps for those niche communities and finding like behaviors that already exist. Um, like you know there's lots of subreddits, lots of Facebook groups as well like that you could build specific products for that monetize very well and then you could have a $100,000 plus a month MR uh on that specific product for that niche group and it's super easy to target those groups on TikTok. So, you know, like a great example is like the look like like you with Blake, right? Like that was a emerging community on Tik Tok, built a product for them, it and it worked. You know, I think that that's like that's probably the best way for people to get started, honestly. It's like just find behavior that already exists on the internet and then optimize that behavior and stick a a payw wall at some point in the flow. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Hunter. I really appreciate your time. My pleasure, man. This is great.